Aderson Oliveira: I've spoken with the founder of ScaleMyEmpire.com, Scott Gellatly. As a virtual CTO, what he brings to the table for his clients is the technical expertise to advise and implement systems as well. Most of his clients are not in the position to hire a full-time CTO, so he becomes their CTO.
One of the big takeaways from me doing this conversation is the fact that he mentioned that if you are working for clients using an outsourcing team, you need to have either a project manager or an account manager that is able to bridge the gap between the client and the outsourcing company, otherwise you're going to have problems making them communicate directly with each other. He is also a big fan of business systematization, and he not only applies that to his business, but to his clients' businesses as well. Have a listen and get inspired to systematize and outsource.
Hello, hello, Aderson Oliveira here. This is another interview for the OuchSourcing Podcast where I talk to specialists, to business owners, to experts about everything around outsourcing and how to do it properly, how to avoid certain pitfalls, and today is no different. Today, I have Scott Gellatly with me. I hope that I got your last name right, Scott.
Scott Gellatly: That was good enough, Aderson.
Aderson: Thank you for being here, welcome.
Scott: Thanks, mate. Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited.
Aderson: Great, great. So, Scott, let me first connect you to outsourcing, how outsourcing plays on our life, on your business, tell me about that.
Scott: Sure, Aderson. For me, outsourcing has been a really positive experience, and it's really, I guess, shaped how I see business working in the future and how I would run any business that I would open up or begin any time in the future. For me, we had a team of about 18 people in the Philippines, and that was a mix of virtual assistants, project managers, and developers.
We had a pretty large outfit, and we ran that for a few years before we started to -- I guess we cut back on our direct hires and went to more of a freelancing kind of model, and now we've got this network of outsourced team members all around the world: Philippines, India, Pakistan, U.S., and in Australia, locally, as well, and we kind of work on this global outsourced model now. So, it's really kind of framed how I do business in a general sense. Does that make sense?
Aderson: It does, it does. What I find interesting about you, Scott, is that you have two distinct angles about outsourcing that we can talk about. You are a virtual CTO, you offer a virtual CTO service, which to me, this is outsourcing as well, but the other side is that you are a client of outsourcing providers as well. You act on the other side as well.
I guess, let's first explore a little bit more about your experience outsourcing work to some other places. You said that you outsource to a lot of different places with a lot of different people. You mentioned about 18 people, but I'm sure that this was not how you started to outsource. Again, I guess that you grew to that point. So, tell me a little bit about the leap of faith, the first leap of faith that you had to take when you said, "Okay, I'm not going to do this. I'm going to have somebody else doing that for me. I'm going to outsource for the first time." Tell me about that.
Scott: Great question, Aderson. I guess if I think back to, maybe, three years ago when I was first starting my business -- actually, you know what it was, I was doing my pricing mold, which are the sort of client, the size of the clients and the types of budgets they had available, and wanting to provide the same sort of level of service that maybe a corporate enterprise would get to the small business market, and when I was trying to work out how to make it work, I thought, "Far out, if I just hire one more local expert, I'm toast. It's just not going to work. I'm going to have to charge the same amount that I would charge a large enterprise, and that would price the market. How do I do this?"
The universe has a funny way of working, Aderson. At the same time, roughly speaking, I connected with a chap named Paul Higgins from, at the time -- what's his previous business name? It's Build Live Give now, and I believe he's been on your podcast as well, and we were chatting, and we were in sort of similar veins, and had services that really complemented one another. He did virtual assistance; I did systemizing your business.
We thought, "Far out, why don't we actually work together here?" and he sort of provided me my first virtual team member, so to speak, which was a virtual assistant who was helping me manage email and just taking away a lot of that backend kind of admin stuff that just drives so many hours out of your week. He sort of handed that over, and that was a reasonably successful start, but very quickly, I sort of took control of his developer team and started nurturing and building them up, and hiring my own developers, and eventually we actually merged businesses, and became this big unit, servicing small business.
That happened relatively quickly. Like, in 18 months, we went from me not even knowing what outsourcing is or even contemplating the idea of offshoring something, or using someone other than whom I could speak to face-to-face to having this big team, and now driving my entire business outsourced.
I'll tell you, Aderson, this kind of model for a business like me, allowing me to work from home, allowing me to spend time with my wife, my little boy, I've watched every step of him growing from birth until him starting to talk now. Like, no doubt, he'll burst into my office at any moment and go, "Dad, dad, dad, dad," and it will be sensational, and that is all due to this model that outsourcing provides and the technology behind it. This is really technology-driven.
Aderson: I get it, I get it. Once again, let me go back to that first experience, that first hint that you had about outsourcing. Were you second-guessing if that would work for you or not? I mean, I look back at my experience as well, and I was very hesitant. I mean, it's almost I know that people do that, but I don't know if that will work for me. Did you have those thoughts as well?
Scott: I know a lot of people do, and for a guy who's super-systemized, highly cautious, very technology-oriented, I have this weird risk-taking streak in me, and I guess, I get this general feeling of what I see in the future as being and always pushing in that direction, and I saw the opportunity to leverage, effectively, low-cost, but highly-skilled people, using technology to sort of have that conversation and manage them, and to me, it actually just made sense to do.
I tried to take the philosophies and everything that I learned and used that to try to convince others who, as you said, might be looking at the idea of outsourcing going, "Oh, is this really going to work for my business?" Now that I've been through the journey and kind of understand all the pitfalls and all the things that need to be done to make it successful, I feel like I can help others to realize the same benefits that I kind of didn't fully understand at the time, but suspected, as a bit of a hunch, I suppose, it was the way forward.
Aderson: You mentioned there, pitfalls, and again, you make it plural, so I would assume that you faced many pitfalls. Can you maybe point out one, or two, or three of those pitfalls that you went through that you said, "Hey, you know what? Nevermore. That will not happen again because now I learned this thing here"?
Scott: I think there's two main things for me, Aderson. The first one is understanding cultural differences and how that will affect the way they communicate to a client in certain situations, and the example I'll use is something like project management. So, while we're virtual CTOs, we're also virtual project managers. We implement the strategies that we suggest for our clients, and we set up project managers in our virtual offshore office, so to speak.
But, a project manager, by nature, needs to be a very strong character, needs to be very direct, and needs to be able to communicate exceptionally well. It's a really difficult role to handle, and in that particular office, with that particular culture, that kind of personality trait is not super-common. So, it was, A, very hard to find the right person, and B, when we thought we did, it actually turned out not to be the case.
You've got to think in different cultures, in different countries, there's certain personality traits which are more common than others, and you've got to think about the kind of roles they're trying to hire. Does that make sense?
Aderson: It does, it does. Let me put you in a situation here. Actually, it's a situation that I have faced that situation today. Not yesterday, not a year ago, not last week; today. I have a business called DeskPal, and we provide support to our clients. I have a client that wrote me an email because he is very pissed with what two of our team members is providing to him.
I said, "You know what? I could jump in and I could fix this situation here," but no, I'm just going to send a note to both guys and say, "Guys, this is what is happening. I need this to be sorted out by tomorrow morning." It's one Filipino and one Indian guy. I know that you don't know all the in's and out's, all the details, but what would be your take in a scenario like that?
Scott: In my mind, whenever you're working with an outsource team, and I'm actually going to say more broadly because in any team, irrespective of whether they're offshored, outsourced, whatever the terminology you want to use, that team of implementors, the doers, the people that are going to provide the value, you need to be led by somebody who is client-facing, who can communicate and have the hard discussions, understand what a client should be trying to achieve, and come up with a solution, then delegate it to their team.
I find, in my experience, that if you try to connect the client with, maybe, the doer, the person at the bottom of the pyramid, so to speak, without putting the negative connotation on that. The "technician" is probably the better term. No matter if they're offshored, outsourced, or if they're sitting right in front of you, they're probably the wrong personality type to be trying to solve a problem with a client, particularly if they're a small business client who, from our experience, are passionate, direct, highly-motivated, and needed whatever they've asked you for five weeks ago. So, they're stressed, they're probably working 50 hours a week.
You've got to have a certain type of person who can get in there and get a result, and the technician is probably not -- you know, you wouldn't put a bottom-of-your-mum's-basement-ponytailed-developer with a CEO to try and solve a problem. Does that make sense?
Aderson: It does, and actually, you have a great point there. I really like this -- it's not that subtle, but the fact that there must be a person in between here that can do the connection properly, that can talk both languages. By language, I don't mean English, or Portuguese, or Spanish. I mean the tech language to the business language. There needs to be a bridge here. Okay, I get that. I'm going to take that, let's put it this way.
Scott: It's a good segue to my, what I would say, that second point was, actually, Aderson, and that's the idea that, although your team might be offshore, or outsourced in some model, they're still a team, they're still humans, and while cultural differences might dictate what they're more proficient at or not, ultimately, if you build your team like you would build any team, and set up the right structure, set up the right systems, hire the right people and learn how to hire is like the biggest -- you know? Learn how to hire no matter what business you're starting, no matter who you're working for, learn how to hire, and structure your business correctly, you're going to be successful irrespective of where they're located.
Aderson: Okay, Scott, so I've heard you mentioning systems a few times. Is everything that you do, that your company does with the many outsourcing providers that you work with, is everything systematized? I mean, is there a process for everything? If so, how did you come about knowing that systems is the way to go?
Scott: Well, I guess there's two parts to that, Aderson. The first is that we help our clients systemize for a living. So, on one hand, I've got to practice what I preach, and I've got to master my own art. So, systemizing my own business tends to be my default. You find some founders just love to do some marketing, or love to get some PR. I just love systemizing things. I can't get enough of it. I systemize my own business and resystemize it, and constantly evolve it all the time.
I found that when it came to that offshoring or that outsourced team where you don't necessarily get face-to-face live, in-person communications that regularly, your systems have to be tight and you have to be constantly refining them. So, you almost need a little system of capturing these problems when they come up, putting them on the agenda and saying, "Alright, this is a problem we had last month. These are the systems that we're going to write or the changes we're going to make to sort of stop that in the future."
You know what, Aderson, what you actually get at the end with a super-systemized business is a business that runs way better than if you actually had local people where you feel like, maybe, you don't need to do that because you can stand up over the cubicle and say, "Hey, Jim, don't do that again," and then you go have a beer later and everything will be sweet.
But, you maybe don't craft systems in that environment so often because you feel like you've got that personal relationship, where really, if you did, you'd have a sensational, singing business. If that makes sense, what I'm saying is that the need to systemize actually crafts a way better business for you.
Aderson: The other thing that is a consequence of systematizing and automating as much as possible is that, one, you have a more sellable business that you can sell easily or in an easier way, at least, and two is that you can potentially and eventually even remove yourself from the daily grind, let's put it this way.
Scott: Well, we talk about, constantly, systemizing your business to become more competitive, more innovative, and ultimately, more profitable, and that means, as a founder, you can start to change the world, change your industry, or change yourself, and systems are the absolute key to that. You mentioned valuation of your business. It's sort of well-known that a business that is completely unsystemized and relying totally on individuals might get a 2-times profit factor, back-of-the-napkin dollar figure, whereas a systemized business could be 4 to 8 times. If the people left tomorrow, the product is the system of added deliberate.
As you said, it means that you can start changing your life. As a founder, where you really need to be to scale your empire, so to speak, is in the driver seat making decisions, sitting above the forest, coordinating the experts to work for you, and systems allow you to do. And if you don't and you're stuck in the weeds, and you're working on the tools, so to speak, I just don't believe that you'll ever be able to scale to the level that you really want.
Aderson: Let me explore a little bit more this systematization of processes and businesses as well. Can you give me a little bit of the nitty gritty types of tools? I'm actually talking about tools that you use, you and your team use to apply a systematization. Are we just talking about Google Docs, Word Documents? Is that it or is there anything else that you guys use as well?
Scott: Great question. Aderson, did you know that a system is actually people, process, and technology? So, take people, process, and platform, and whenever I talk systems, I talk about my three P's. So, the first thing we always do is map our process, and we actually start with a customer experience, and any business owner, if you're looking to systemize your business, think about what is that customer experience you want to create from the point that they first meet you to the point that you've delivered your value, and then the next level. So, how do we charge our clients, how do we pay our suppliers, how do we directly manage the things outside of that customer experience? That's sort of your first piece that you want to get right.
Then, you've got to think about the people that are going to drive that, and equally, you own 33% of the whole thing. You've got to have the right people, and that's where I said before, you've got to hire right, you've got to work on if they're onshore, offshore, or outsourced, whatever, and think through that strategy, and then the platforms come at the end. Because, honestly, the platform is just like the brand of hammer. If you were going to go build a house tomorrow, Aderson, and someone said, "You've got two choices of hammer," and you made this big show of which hammer you might use, I think the builders would probably just go, "Oh, shite, grab one," because what's important is they've got the blueprint and they've got the subbies that they trust that are ready to go.
In terms of tools, we use Asana for our internal task management. I had Zapier, which is constantly creating tasks across all of my different platforms in Asana form, and assigning them to my team, and I use special project management tools called Mavenlink to drive my client projects, which is a really powerful sort of mid-tier level project management system. I should also say ProsperWorks for my CRM. That's kind of my main tech stack, really, to drive my business forward. I've got a lot of things hanging off that, but ProsperWorks, Mavenlink, Asana, and Zapier drive everything in my business.
Aderson: Just a side not, a tool that we have been using a lot lately for process creation and management as well is called Process Street. They are not a sponsor of the show, of the interview at all, but just something that I came across that we started to really like their tool set. Again, it's called Process Street. Just a side note.
Scott: I've played with a few of them, Aderson. I've played with a few of those recorded processes and procedures tool, and I think they're quite good. Ultimately, if you can draw this on a Whiteboard or a Google Sheet, or a Google Doc, as long as you're getting across the points to your team, whether they live in Google Drive or on a Google site, or on a systemHUB, or Process Street, whatever, just make a decision and go with it, and that's really the point I'm trying to make. Go for it and just get started with something.
Aderson: Yeah, I mean, it's like you made the comparison with someone with a hammer. Two hammers here, it doesn't matter. It's like the music player, they want to buy the most expensive piano because that will make them better. No, not really. It's your craft. It's more of the craft, not the tool. Again, love that. I really like that.
Now, let's circle this back to the virtual CTO business, because so far, we have spoken about your side of hiring people. Now, let's put the other hat and be the one hired. First, talk a little bit about what is it that your business offers, and circle this back. Of course, include that the virtual CTO service that you offer as well. So, let's start there.
Scott: I guess the idea of outsourcing, in general, to an offshore team, is perhaps an old idea, and I think that, really, we outsource all the time, every day of the week to people that are, like you said, maybe earlier you told me Paul, maybe your neighbor, maybe someone down the street.
We're constantly outsourcing, and I use that kind of gig economy model in my own business constantly, because ultimately, I want to help mid-tier businesses or small businesses that are trying to break into that medium or mid-tier market to scale their empires, right? And we do that by understanding what systems their business needs, developing the tech stack that's going to help them get there, and then ultimately, project managing the implementation.
In a previous life, you might have called it management consulting, and business analysis. In the corporate world, that's the kind of terminology you might use, that corporates spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this sort of stuff, and they have multiple team members on-site, full-time, working for 12 months to kind of make this stuff a reality.
What I posit is that mid-tier, smaller mid-tier business need this stuff more than anyone, and maybe they can't afford to hire five people full-time and sit down them at a desk to work on this stuff over a long period. So, the outsourcing model is perfect for them to get the value and the expertise that they need from highly-experienced, highly-skilled professionals, but at one quarter of the cost that it might be to implement something in that corporate enterprise world. Because they're outsourced, they're on-demand, you're only getting maybe a quarter of one person to do the job that you need for your business, not hiring one whole person 200 grand a year or whatever to do the job. Does that make sense, Aderson?
Aderson: It does. It does make sense. I'm going to just make a side note. It's funny, you like asking, "Does it make sense?" I actually like to ask that question quite a lot when I'm talking to people. Anyway, just a big side note here.
Let me get to my next point here: results, let's talk a little bit about results, because I think that, at the end of the day, it's why your clients hire you, because of some sort of results, and some sort of outcome that you can bring to them. So, think about the last, let's say, two clients, or two projects that came across through you to your business and what was the kind of outcomes that you were able to bring to them?
Scott: It ultimately comes down to what we mentioned before, which is business valuation and profit. So, when you systemize your business, you implement the right tech stack, and you align your strategy, your systems strategy to your business strategy, create an awesome customer experience, efficient and productive teams, and insightful and intelligent reporting, you're going to have this competitive, innovative business that's more profitable.
Ultimately, vision, whatever your vision is for the world, for your business, for yourself, for your industry, you need profit. You've got to make money in order to succeed in business, and I think the figures are, Aderson, that there's about 2 million small businesses in Australia and only 27,000 are mid-tier. So, the drop-off for those businesses that are trying to grow and get into mid-tier is enormous. It's a fraction of a percentage.
For the last few jobs for the clients that we've worked on, trying to get people to cross that great chasm of small to medium, we help them systemize their business so that they are generating profit, much more complex, competitive, and challenging environment so that they can achieve what they're looking to achieve.
Aderson: To be honest, with you, I never have spoken with a virtual CTO or someone with the angle that you brought to business there. I'm just trying to understand how clients reach out to you and your company. Is that whenever they have a tech project, a development project to execute, is that when you come in place? Is that usually the time that a client would reach out to you and your company?
Scott: Yeah, spot on. I think if you're in that position that I mentioned where, perhaps, you've grown really quickly, you've gone from 10 people, to 20 people, to 30 people, and you're starting to break into that new tier of business, and you realize that running your business on spreadsheets, and just managing purely on personal relationships is not going to get you to the next level, perhaps you're seeing on the P&L that your labor costs and your expenses are increasing dramatically without the profit get, and you're finding your team -- sometimes, it's hard to maintain that culture and that productivity of real lean, hardworking, as you grow beyond 20 people. When you're feeling like you need help to jump the chasm, so to speak, and create that profitable business, that's when people are reaching out to us at ScaleMyEmpire.com and connecting with us to help make that a reality.
For sure, they might even realize, "Hey, you know what? We actually need a finance system here because MYOB product doesn't work for us super-well for us anymore," and yes, people do engage us directly because they have a specific project that they actually need to get over the line.
Aderson: Okay, so talk a little bit, Scott, about the client profile of yours. I mean, which industries are they coming from, what is a typical profile? What is the ideal profile of a client of yours?
Scott: Good question. So, Aderson, we've found that the businesses that, I guess, benefit the most between the systems are the ones that are reasonably labor-intensive. So, services-type businesses, think of agencies, consultants, engineers. We've got a lot of background in mining construction and in digital and marketing agencies, believe it or not - almost different ends of the brain. We've got a lot of, I guess, experience working with people that sell knowledge and time for money, ultimately, and we really understand how to craft a beautiful customer experience for them and systemize it so that they can create that profitable vehicle.
The businesses that are, perhaps, in that, maybe they're small now in that they're sort of maybe 20 to 50 people, but they've grow really rapidly, revenue's gone from maybe a couple of mil, up to 5 to 10 mil really quickly, and they're sort of on that precipice, Aderson, ready to launch into that mid-tier, ready to maybe expand nationally, or release a new product, or open a new office, or whatever that might be. Maybe, they're looking at outsourcing themselves or shaking up their own tree. They're the sort of people that we're connecting with. Is that clear to you?
Aderson: Yeah, it makes sense. Let me laser-focus right now on the virtual CTO. I think I can imagine what it is that you provide from the virtual CTO offering, but I would like to hear from you. What is it that you are providing on that offering alone?
Scott: Sure. A lot of these businesses that I just mentioned, they may be running on spreadsheets, or paper, or personal relationships, and they need to understand or find it difficult to work out what tech stack, and I use that term in terms of what softwares, what systems they need to scale, and it is a minefield. There's something like 20,000 products out there, and if you were just looking for a CRM, have you Googled CRM lately, Aderson? The results are frightening how many actually come up out there.
Our role is to know what's on the market, what's hot, what integrates with what, how to flex it in your business. Just walking the path and knowing the path are two different things, and that's our role as virtual CTOs is to help you understand what tech stack you need to grow, and to scale, and to help you kind of come up with all those automations, and integrations, and everything around them.
Aderson: I would assume that, from a virtual CTO, there's also a devisory that you are providing to your clients as well, and I also would assume that some of what you advise or recommend, you might be able to provide to them, or you may not, and maybe you have partners that come in place to complement what you offer. Again, that is also part of being a virtual CTO, correct?
Scott: Yeah, that's right. So, it starts out in that advisory role, and in some cases, we're on the board as a non-exec director or something like that of a business to help, because technology's always evolving. What a business needs as it grows is always evolving, and I guess, directing the implementation of that with all of the suppliers, the vendors, internal team, making change a success is a big part of what we do. So, we're advising on one hand and providing strategy to the senior leadership team, but on the other hand, we're also coordinating all the people to make it happen, and it could be a lot of people.
I mean, how many founders have you spoken to that are just stuck in business-as-usual mode, frantically trying to deliver their products and services and just don't have time to make the changes they actually need to coordinate all the people to make it happen, and that's what we do.
Aderson: You're right, you're right. Scott, one of the ways that we learn as people, as business people, business owners, as entrepreneurs is with our mistakes, with our roadblocks that we face, things that we overcome, horror stories that we come across. So, I would like to see if you are open to share a potential horror story. Again, it doesn't need to be a horror story. It can be just a story that something went wrong here, and this is how it was fixed, and those are the lessons that we were able to draw from that experience. Does anything come to mind about that?
Scott: Does anything come to mind, Aderson? Plenty.
Aderson: I know, I know. I can only imagine how many you may have. Maybe, tell us the hairiest one, let's put it this way.
Scott: We don't just, I guess, outsource people to use internally. We sell work, right? So, we're selling, essentially, an outsource mold to our clients as well. So, we've got that extra level of complexity and where things can go wrong, any service provider is going to sort of run into these, and the hardest thing that we found was that trying to -- if the way you're set up is sort of fixed-priced, fixed-scope terms, and you've got an outsourced team that had a different style of communication and you don't have that person in the middle that I mentioned right at the very start, that good, strong project manager that can translate from one to the other, you're going to run into big problems.
I'm not going to cite one issue, because I'm going to cite many from when we first started before I put that role in. I was a bit like an example you gave me earlier, an issue what happened with a client, we sort of scope it up, and then something would happen, and then I would go to the developers and say, "Alright, guys, I need you to fix this and try and work out what's happening," and they, of course, without somebody perhaps looking over their shoulder, and at that time without the strong system for managing change, would go off and spend weeks on something without me necessarily fully knowing, and I would come out the other end with a product that has very little, if any, alignment what the customer was actually asking for, and also, expensive on my part, because I've gone and burned quite a few hours to craft it.
In the early days, before I was highly-systemized, before I learned how to delegate, and before I put that key role in, that did happen to us regularly. Have you ever seen that meme on the internet where someone says they want to design a swing, and they show, "This is what the customer thought it would look like, this is what the developers built, and it's got like five seats and only swings backwards. This is what the salesperson said it would look like, and it was a throne," that happens unless you've got that person in the middle who can do the translation.
Aderson: Let me ask you a little bit about that person in the middle there, Scott. Again, I have my own assumptions here, but is that person closer to you or closer to the providers? By that, I mean, is that role -- I can call that role a PM, a project manager, is that guy or that person Australian or closer to the provider there, in your case?
Scott: Awesome question, and how I've structured my business is that I have local project managers, but outsourced technical team, and I do that because of the different cultural differences between the different countries, and because a lot of our clients want to speak to a local Australian person for that interface, and then they kind of abstract all the freelancers, and team members, and outsourced people behind that. So, it's a bit like a funnel. Everything goes through the PM, the PM translates, breaks it down, provides it to the team, and that model has solved 99% of our problems, and that's why we do it for others now. We've built a business around that same model.
Aderson: I see, that makes sense. Again, I see that role almost like an ambassador, someone that, as I mentioned before, knows how to talk business and knows how to talk tech as well so they can, again, become that bridge, close that gap that we have been talking about. Yeah, I like that.
Scott: They're outsourced as well. Right now, I'm working from my home office. All of my project managers are spread between the various state capitals of Australia. In some cases, they're running their own businesses. They're business people themselves, or have come from a business background. They understand what drives a founder and how to talk to a founder, and they work their own hours and live a lifestyle that's perfect for them.
I actually think that I've got two clients, Aderson. I don't just have the clients that I sell to. My project managers are my clients. I empower guys that don't want to maybe work in corporate anymore and work full-time on one project slaving away for the man, so to speak, that want to take control of their lives, work at home with their families, enjoy their life, and work the hours that they want to. But, all those skills and experience, and everything they've built up over the years, they can now provide to dynamic, constantly-changing, exciting founders, and small business owners.
Aderson: Awesome, awesome. Scott, we are coming towards the end here of our conversation. What is the one thing that you'd like people to leave this conversation knowing about? We spoke about many different aspects, outsourcing as a client, as a provider, but what is the one thing that you want people to leave this conversation knowing about?
Scott: Well, I think that if you're looking to craft an outsource team either to use them for your own business or to maybe provide a service to others, think very carefully about how you organize the leadership, and it's the point that I keep coming back to. That project manager sort of role or account manager role, whatever terminology you want to use who can translate between parties, coordinate that outsourced team on your behalf is a really important role. It will lead to success and they can be outsourced just as much as anyone else can be. So, don't even think about that in terms of outsourcing. Just think of it in terms of growing a team in a dynamic environment.
Aderson: Awesome. I really like that. Actually, I'm telling the truth here. A few points I'm taking away for my own business from our conversation today, so I'm really thankful to you about that. Before I let you go, Scott, can you share with people how they can reach out to you maybe to ask more questions, maybe to engage in your services. Talk a little bit about the best way for people to reach out to you.
Scott: Absolutely. Our website, ScaleMyEmpire.com. You can connect with us through that, and happy to provide my personal email address because I like to build personal relationships with the people that are coming to us, and it's just scott@ScaleMyEmpire.com. Pretty easy to remember, and we'll be launching some social pages and so forth shortly. So, once that's up, I'll certainly send you the links if anybody's interested in connecting in that way.
Aderson: As usual, all links mentioned by Scott during the conversation will be posted in the show notes of the interview. That's really it. Scott. Again, thank you very much. Thank you, thank you for sharing your knowledge, your expertise. Again, I'm really grateful, and as I said, quite a few takeaways from this conversation here to apply to my own business. Thank you very much, and I hope to see you soon. Bye.
Scott: Thanks, Aderson. If I can add value to you, I can add value to anyone, mate. Thank you very much, cheers.